User talk:FFXI-Mierin/Ravin Raven Discussion

Remove the image, the person who posted it did not take the picture and it was posted under the CC BY NC SA license. Wikia is commercial, and thus not entitled to use of the screenshot, which was literally copy/pasted from either BG forums or BG Wiki. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Stromgarde (talk • contribs).

You are incorrect. Please refrain from making non-constructive edits or you will be blocked from editing. This is your first and last warning. --User:Charitwo/Sig 02:29, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=748632#p748632 User who posted image did not give consent to have it posted here, and indeed explicitly denied it. Take it down. --User:Stromgarde 02:37, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The image is fine. Screenshots are not the property of the capturing user, they are copyrighted by Square-Enix. If you have a problem, you can take it to them. --User:Charitwo/Sig 02:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If that is the official Wikia/FFXIclopedia policy I would like to see it explicitly noted on the front page. I'm curious to see what the community reaction, including your own users, would be to that. --Lokim 02:45, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Please note, that all images related to this game are copyrighted by Square-Enix and belong exclusively to Square-Enix. As related directly to copyrights, to secure a copyright, the user must have created an original work with some sort of creative input to it. None of the images from Final Fantasy XI are original images as related to people who play the game. Thus, no player can assert a copyright over images from the game. Only Square Enix may do so. That's not "official Wikia/FFXIclopedia" policy, that is Square Enix policies. --FFXI-Mierin Talk / Contrib 03:15, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Look, let's not tip-toe around this. It would take you all of about 30 minutes to remove this screenshot and take another one. If you made a post in your forums asking one of the hundreds of FFXIclopedia users to procure a new screenshot you'd probably have it even faster. This is not about who owns the copyright to the image, this is you insisting on leaving it up to stick it to BG. You know that BG is angry about the way information and benefits flow one-way (out of BG to this wiki) and it would be a nice gesture to take it down and get a new one. --Lokim 03:27, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, due to the above claims, this has become an copyright issue. Stormgarde has claimed that this image was covered under an non-applicable license. This isn't about sticking it to anyone. The image in question actually falls below our image standards, so it would be up for replacement, if vandalism threats hadn't warranted that the image be protected. I'm honestly appalled by the assumptions some of these new editors have been displaying. This might have gone a little better if it didn't start out as a fight. Manners and a little bit of "the magic word" never hurt. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 03:39, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

My response is simple: doesn't the same expectation of courtesy extend to this wiki? Rather than simply posting an image that was created by someone else, In3rta should have politely asked the original creator. If you read the thread referenced by Stormgarde, you'll see that the creator explicitly states that he wouldn't have had a problem if someone has asked him instead of just taking it. The imagine was on the wiki within minutes of being posted on BG, and that is what is at issue here.

Your "defense" of this fiasco amounts to this: you're saying that it's a race to get something posted on this wiki before a creator's desires are known. Once an image is on your wiki, the creator must now somehow convince you that it must be removed. Does that sound like a sane policy to you? --Lokim 04:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

"Please" remove it, it is painfully obvious that the original poster of the image does not want it here, and you guys are displaying exceptionally poor form by saying essentially 'finder's keepers!' and 'nuh uh!' endlessly. --User:Stromgarde 03:44, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

In3rtia has not posted here claiming anything about "removal", all he/she did was upload it. --User:Charitwo/Sig 04:03, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Inertia was not the poster of the original image, the original post can be seen here: http://www.bluegartrls.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=747463#p747463 . Inertia just took the image from BGwiki and uploaded it to your wiki. http://wiki.bluegartrls.com/Image:Ravin.jpg is the exact same image as http://wiki.ffxiclopedia.org/wiki/Image:RavinRaven.jpg, it was copy/pasted wholesale, and again, Inertia has zero do to with the file other than downloading it from BGWiki and uploading it to yours with zero changes. --User:Stromgarde 04:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

We are not required to verify information posted at BG one way or another, if In3rtia chose to upload the image found at BG, then so be it. The images are not owned by those who captured them, see Mierin's edits for specifics. --User:Charitwo/Sig 04:19, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This discussion should be moved to Image talk:RavinRaven.jpg since it has nothing to do with the NM, only the image. ~ Karuberu 04:30, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I'll probably move it to my talk page which is where all copyright violation discussions should be. --FFXI-Mierin Talk / Contrib 04:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

This doesn't appear it was ever really given a final ruling and was just kind of swept under the rug; I'd really be interested to know what is and is not accessible to be recycled from other community sites, such as BG and allakhazam, whether it be pictures, statistics, etc. I added some comments on Mierin's talk page as well. --GLaDOS 21:51, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not the kind of person who always needs to get in the last word. What I said at the beginning of this discussion still holds: players cannot hold copyrights to images from the game, only SE can. Thus, because SE has condoned the use of their images by this website, we will continue to maintain all images of the game on our website, regardless of where the originally appeared, as long as they comply with our website's image policies. As long as it is information about the game, we will maintain that information on this page. In the cases of personal guides or in depth research, we may possibly post sources, but images and simple game statistics will not receive sourcing. --FFXI-Mierin Talk / Contrib 22:08, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

<Elmerthepointy> Well I see in Ravin Raven there's [source] thing that links to
 the BG thread
<Elmerthepointy> Is that okay to be there?
<Chrisjander> I put that there
<Elmerthepointy> ok
<Chrisjander> if it's true, we do source to other sites
<Chrisjander> we have many linking to alla and KI

--User:Charitwo/Sig 05:24, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

If the "Requires verification" tag is employed, then sourcing should be employed as well. It's only fact once proven and accepted by the community, but that doesn't change the source of the information. Credit should be given where due, especially when finding out information such as unknown NMs or things that aren't easily derived from DAT files or some NPC conversation. --Trogdorn8 19:52, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mierin,

I hope this is the right place to put this; I'm bad at wiki editing.

Anyway, I was bumbling around and happened upon the Ravin Raven page, and saw the discussion over the picture...it doesn't appear that it was ever really resolved. More importantly, the "new" picture that was put up by Charitwo is the exact same image, photoshopped to remove the other character in the background: [1] for a comparison with the URLs showing for proof of source (in case the links move around), or [2] with a cut together version that makes it easier to compare. (Assuming they remain intact, you can also see a flip-comparison just by following the direct image links to the respective sites, and tabbing between them: [3] vs [4])

This is pretty underhanded in my opinion. You can't paint a mustache on the Mona Lisa and consider it a different piece; it's still the Mona Lisa, just has a mustache on it.

I realize you have no reason to heed a single word I'm saying since this is my very first edit. But I think it needs to be addressed and I hope you won't just blow me off as some hater. --GLaDOS 21:47, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I noticed my name thrown in here. The only reason I removed the PC was because it made the image more in compliance with our Image Policy, not to "disguise" it from the original image. The image was originally uploaded by User:In3rtia. Ultimately, the images are copyrighted by Square Enix, so no one user can claim ownership over them. This is why all images uploaded here qualify as fair use under the GFDL. --User:Charitwo/Sig 21:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

But you did so after your team had it taken down to appease the BG uproar over it, no? It still seems a little shady when it would be just as simple to leave it blank until someone uploads another one (hell, give people points once a picture is verified as "safe" or something, maybe that'll give them some incentive to get an upload out here...even without it, a forcepop NM that doesn't even look remotely special isn't critical to have a picture of). I'm not personally upset about the reusage, but more concerned with the actual guidelines that govern this sort of thing. The copyright guide really doesn't make clear what's fair turf when it comes to reusing information from other communities. --GLaDOS 22:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)