User talk:FFXI-Mierin/Archive June 4, 2007

I felt it was acceptable, as the conversation was still preserved, and I'm sorry if I overstepped. However, the presence of red links in archives presents problems for future editors of the wiki, such as references to deleted or moved pages, images, or other sources that now show up in Wanted Pages or other locations. If a page were moved, and the original to be deleted, wouldn't you want the archived conversation to still point to the correct page, now moved? --Chrisjander 01:28, 5 March 2007 (EST)

Per your addition to the About section, Ganiman is actually a Forum Administrator, not a moderator, by phpBB definition. --Charitwo 11:18, 14 March 2007 (EDT)

You're more than welcome to go get your own, brighter version :) --Charitwo 15:18, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

If it's alright, since there are so many of these, and by many I mean hundreds. I'm not going to bother creating a discussion page. --Charitwo 15:55, 15 March 2007 (EDT)

I've already spoke Ganiman about it and he says its ok as long as I make a note of why I'm doing it, either on their talk page or in the edit summary. --Charitwo 11:29, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Certainly noted, but if I don't do it, they will just recreate the redirect I had deleted instead of looking for the proper casing. I'm ok with the risk because it makes the Wiki a better place, and although only one reaction, it was rather positive and made me feel good for doing so. See: User talk:Kyrial. --Charitwo 11:39, 21 March 2007 (EDT)

Gahoo already said that unnecessary redirects can be noted in the edit summary as they are normally subject to speedy deletion. Everything else I have marked for deletion has had a discussion started. Please speak with him if you feel otherwise. --Charitwo 13:46, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

Yes, Hand to Hand was an exception, nobody is perfect. Instead of harassing me about the redirect I marked this morning, you could have dealt with it directly. And as for your newest message on my talk page, it makes no difference when Gahoo and Chrisjander delete the talk pages along with the article. So both of them can't be wrong. Speaking of which, see my archives of my talk page under the first Redirect section and also the second redirect section second message. Also, please ensure you have everything you want to say said when making a message, the orange box every 3 seconds because you wanted to change something is rather bothersome. --Charitwo 14:14, 11 April 2007 (EDT)

I don't hate you or your suggestion at all. I got started going through and changing the links for the quests because I noticed some newly broken links on my page and assumed that an admin had decided to rename the quests.

That said, I'll hold off on the rest of the quests at the top of the wanted page until you can take a look at the quest pages status. Japolo 09:40, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

What were you trying to accomplish, I was changing broken links to working links. And changing redirects to the proper page. Then getting rid of the redirect. Any anyways, you can revert faster than I can, I have an extra click or two. --Charitwo 17:26, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

See! you're changing them back to the broken version! --Charitwo 17:27, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Well since you're changing it, you got to make the new articles to reflect the proper casing. If you didn't want it changed back you should have finished what you started. Because I had no idea. I was just fixing the links. --Charitwo 17:29, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

• By "start" I meant when you reverted Japolo's edits, you should have started moving/deleting right afterwards, instead of waiting til now. But now it's all fixed now anyways. --Charitwo 17:40, 20 March 2007 (EDT)

Well I wasn't aware of that either, however, I did know about the variation in casing inbetween the 12 different articles. Those Trial-Size redirects are all gone now anyway, or at least they should be. If I had the power to move them it would have been done a week or so ago when I first noticed the problem when I was going through redirects. --Charitwo 17:35, 20 March 2007 (EDT) >< lol sorry wrong page.

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I changed my mind and sent Ganiman an IM, he is taking care of it. Thanks though. :) --Charitwo 15:34, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

Thanks for correcting me, I was thinking Charitwo was Jr Admin for some reason, especially for all the work they do around here ;p I'll be more careful on how I word it next time. --Wayka 16:03, 22 March 2007 (EDT)

I didn't start any edit wars. You should pay attention to what's going on before making accusations. I wasn't the first person to revert changes without taking it to the talk page. --Beaux 11:05, 25 March 2007 (EDT)

You changed your definition just so you could justify your accusation. --Beaux 13:42, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

You were the one who picked the one word and started arguing about it, and now you're accusing me of that too. All I did was deny your accusation. /sigh. I apologize for participating in an edit war, and I apologize for being the second person to add something in without taking it to the talk page. --Beaux 14:07, 29 March 2007 (EDT)

Looks good, you have a knack for de-uglifying things. --Charitwo 12:48, 1 May 2007 (EDT)

I reverted several changes you made regarding NMs here, some of those were fine as they were. --Charitwo 11:34, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Because there has never been a practice of adding currency to any Dynamis mob page as well as adding artifact drops. The only exception to this is the 15 NMs in Dynamis - Xarcabard that only drop the AF associated with their job (e.g. Duke Berith). By making those changes you also removed the image stub tags that I added as well. Dynamis is my expertise and I have a good majority of them on my watchlist and I monitor changes made to each and every one of them. --Charitwo 11:51, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Honestly, I've always felt that not adding drops was silly, especially the NM drops. Also, you make a good point with Steal results, that's money directly in your pocket, instead of in the treasure pool. I always look at Dynamis mobs, and find the page lacking... it looks so blank. Just because we've never done it shouldn't mean that we shouldn't do it. What do you think Mierin, should we start populating Dynamis mob pages with their drops, even if it drops from all of them? I mean, every crab in the game drops rock salt, but we still list it as it's drop. --Chrisjander 11:57, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

As far as NM drops are concerned, the only relevant ones are the one in Dynamis - Xarcabard. Mobs like Skinmask Ugghfogg do not exclusively drop DRK AF2, they can drop any piece. --Charitwo 12:03, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

As far as currency, I don't feel it is necessary. It would however be helpful to make sure it's noted on the respective zone articles, rather than making widespread changes throughout the wiki. Just like there are some mobs that can drop any of the 3 different types of currency, the only ones that are exclusive are Orc, Yagudo, and Quadav who drop coins, shells, and bills respectively. --Charitwo 12:03, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Also, as a note, I am taking off now, I'll be back later this evening after work should any further discussion arise. --Charitwo 12:04, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I don't understand the reversion at all (except to add the image stub which could have simply been re-added). The only thing we don't list here are seals, since they can drop from every mob in the game. Everything else is or should be listed. If a mob drops a number of different things they should all be listed. For example, Bigmouth Billy lists all of the colored rocks. If there are too many to list, a disambiguation page should be made (such as Colored Rocks) and that page can be listed as the "drop" (see Wings of Fury). Same goes for coins. They should be, and are, routinely listed (see Orcish Zerker) both as a drop and a stolen from. As before, if a wide range of types can be dropped they could be made into a disambig page (but I doubt it is necessary here). --Gahoo 12:44, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

Look, the reason they are not listed is because the drops for each Dynamis zone are universal, which is why it is only necessary to list it on the zone page.

Take Dynamis - San d'Oria for example.

• Regular mobs and mini-bosses have the possibility of dropping
  

Relic Armor - Bard's Roundlet, Cleric's Cap, Duelist's Boots, Koga Hakama, Melee Hose, Monster Trousers, Scout's Braccae, Summoner's Pigaches, Valor Gauntlets, Warrior's Calligae, Wyrm Greaves

Relic Weapons - Ihintanto, Relic Bhuj, Relic Gun, Relic Lance

Synthesis Items - Fresh Orc Liver, Griffon Hide, Giant Frozen Head, Gold Beastcoin, Infinity Core, Mythril Beastcoin, Relic Iron, Sparkling Stone, Wootz Ore

Ancient Currency - Ordelle Bronzepiece, Montiont Silverpiece

• Statues have the possibility of dropping the above listed Ancient Currency and an Infinity Core
• Pets of mobs (e.g. Vanguard's Hecteyes and Vanguard's Avatar) drop nothing
• The Mega Boss has the possibility of dropping a Montiont Silverpiece
  

This debate is mainly about the regular mobs and mini-bosses, instead of listing all 26 possible drops on each individual page, it is made apparent on the zone they appear in.

Replace with any zone and the Treasure associate with it, even Dynamis - Beaucedine whose regular mobs have 33 possible drops. It is pointless and a waste of time to list all these drops when it is already apparent on the zone they are associated with.

Like I mentioned above, the only exception to this is the NMs in Dynamis - Xarcabard who have a fixed loot pool.

• One single or HQ Ancient Currency piece
• One Copy of "Schultz Stratagems"
• One AF2 for the job it's associated with (abysmal drop rate)

--Charitwo 16:55, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

This doesn't address the issue of "why not". Just because it's "universal" doesn't mean we shouldn't just list them on all the mob pages as well. Dynamis mob drops are just like any other drop. They cannot be compared to conditional universal items like crystals or beastmen/kindred seals. If that mob drops that specific item, and it doesn't have conditions for dropping like seals and crystals, it should be listed for consistency. It's nice that it's simple enough to simplify on the main dynamis page, but it should also be listed on the individual mob pages, just like we have for regular zones and regular mobs. By that same logic, I could just say on the Category:Crabs page that all crabs drop rock salt, and not have to list it on all the pages, but we don't do that. We list them in both places for consistency. --Chrisjander 17:03, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

That being said, I like Gahoo's idea with the disambig page, like with Colored Rocks. We could make one for Relic Leg Armor, and have it listed as a drop from the NM or whatever it drops from. --Chrisjander 17:05, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm saying there is no purpose to list approximately 25-35 items on every single Dynamis mob article. It is exactly like seals and crystals. Each and every one of those items have the possibility of dropping off each and every one of the mobs(given examples like sans pets/stones). It's the Dynamis equivalent to Beastmen's Seal, Kindred's Seal and Crystals. You cannot say it is not comparable when it's exactly that. --Charitwo 17:10, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

They're not exactly that. Seals and crystals are conditional drops, but these drop all the time without condition from these monsters. You won't get crystals from monsters who do not yield xp and you don't have signet/sanction. You won't get beastmen seals if the mob doesn't give you xp, and kindred seals are the same, but the mob level needs to be higher. That is the reason seals and crystals aren't listed. No such reasoning exists for Dynamis drops. So in that way, you cannot compare them. --Chrisjander 17:14, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

The fact is that a dynamis mob with nothing added to the drop/steal boxes tells the reader that it drops nothing and nothing can be stolen. This is incorrect. The only reason that most are empty is because they have not been filled in, not because they shouldn't be filled in. If a mob drops all items listed in the treasure section of the relavent Dynamis article, then the link in the mob box could go to the relavent Dynamis article and section. If the mob drops some subset of these drops, then a disambiguation page should be made (such as [[Dynamis San d'Oria/Standard Drops]] or [[Dynamis San d'Oria/Currency Drops]] or whatever makes sense depending on what the least number of disambig pages can be made) which should then be added to the mob's drop box. The same thing goes for stealing, although I am not aware of any mob in the game where more than one item can be stolen - so whatever that item is for the mob should be listed. Again, having the boxes blank indicates that they drop nothing. Something should go there, since it seems that they in fact can drop quite a lot of stuff. There are a number of ways to address this issue without listing all 25-35 items, disambig pages being the most sensible it would seem. --Gahoo 17:20, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I'm open to see an example in some sort of sandbox. --Charitwo 17:33, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I couldn't help but notice despite the resolution posted on the Auto-Translator: In-Depth page, the note about Welcome was added back. I don't want to do an edit war with that person, but this is incorrect and should really be removed or properly anotated... Fii 9:42, 9 May 2007 (JST)

I like your changes alot better than the current we have (had? did you change it already?). I looks more organized, and much easier to look at. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 13:28, 23 May 2007 (CDT)

Understandable, I talked with Gani about it this morning. I ensured to follow the formatting from previous news articles and took the content directly from the article at PlayOnline. He said it was ok, I only took the initiative because Gahoo wasn't around and before other incarnations surfaced. Also, speaking of which, when will he be returning, I do expect another post regarding the main version update in the next week. --User:Charitwo/Sig 11:36, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

There is a new one up for June 1st. --User:Charitwo/Sig 21:16, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Understood, won't happen again ^^. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 13:58, 29 May 2007 (CDT)

In case you haven't seen it, someone is spamming creating new accounts and is vandalizing a bunch of pages right now. --Techno 10:14, 30 May 2007 (CDT)

Might want to install the catchpa into new user creation, looks like the bot is just creating infinite random accounts now that you've frustrated its editing ability. And doing arithmetic each time I edit is a pain. --Aurikasura 14:52, 30 May 2007 (CDT)