FFXIclopedia:AfD Discussions/Category:Gay Players

A players sexual preference has no place on an Information wiki about the game Final Fantasy XI, especially considering the game is rated Teen. There is no reason for this to be posted as sexual preference is not apart of the FFXI game itself.

This is not said in any way as anti-gay, as I myself have many gay friends, but openly starting this kind of thing on FFXIclopedia is only asking for drama, and I feel it does not contribute to the wiki itself at all. --Aikar 23:04, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

and to add to that, the gay community has always wanted to not be treated differently than non gay people, but going as far as labeling ones self as 'different' than others is only furthermore segregating the gay community as 'different' and in turn hurts the gay community, and I feel its unfair to the other gay players who agree with this thinking to be labeled 'different'. I feel a gay user template is disrespectful to gay players. --Aikar 23:16, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I definitely see your points, but it should be up to the individual whether or not they want to be open about whether they are gay or straight. I personally like getting to know other gay players, just as I'm sure people like getting to know other people from their country or something.

My main reasoning is if we shouldn't be allowed to express who we are on our userpage, then why even have userpages or userboxes at all? Why let people identify their gender? Their location? How long they've played FFXI? This is all as related or unrelated to playing FFXI as someone identifying themselves as gay. Are you going to start deleting things like this too? I think it should be left up to the individual whether or not they want to declare whether they are gay, straight, or whatever.

And as for the Teen rating, I believe teenagers should know by age 13 what being gay means. And simply stating you're gay doesn't mean you're giving explicit details of your sex life. FFXI even puts the disclaimer that online interactions are not rated by the ESRB.

"Some people add information about themselves as well, possibly including contact information (email, instant messaging, etc), a photograph, their real name, their location, information about their areas of expertise and interest, likes and dislikes, homepages, and so forth. Note that all information added to your user page is public." This is taken from this. I just don't understand why someone's favorite movies can be included in their userpage and not their orientation. --Jaison 23:59, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

See Template:Bisexual Talk. I also agree that this should be deleted. --▫▪▫ Xiacain ▫▪▫ 00:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

You're comparing things like movies and gender to SEXUAL preferences. I do not think someones sexual preferences belong on a userpage. And that's your personal opinion that a 13 year old should know what gay is, some religions would not like talking to children about things involving gay sex. I do not feel a persons opinion should dictate what a child should or should not know.

A forum post or forum community dedicated to GLBT players meeting would be a much better place for that kind of activity than user pages of an informational wiki would be.

Sexual related userboxes simply are not acceptable in my eyes. Do you think someone should be able to put a userbox of their sexual fetishes just cause it describes who they are and lets them find others who share same fetishes? Sexual related things do not belong is one of my main points. --Aikar 00:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I just wrote on another user's discussion page... I just don't understand why when someone states themselves as being gay, it has to be a sexual issue. If a man states they have a wife, I can certainly assume they are having some sort of sexual relationship together, but I'm not going to accuse them of forcing their sexuality on me simply for stating they're married. Sounds like a double standard to me. --Jaison 01:13, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that identification of one's identity in various aspects is generally appropriate so long as it is done with the recognition that this is a family game and family website. Identifying oneself as GBL is one thing and should be allowed. I think further identification is unnecessary - just as identifying oneself as a married man is fine, but more details of that marriage is inappropriate. We obviously welcome people of all backgrounds and want them to be a part of the community. Allowing to better connect with each other was a reason the social networking features were added in the first place. I'd hope that people will continue to use them responsibly and consistent with the overall goal of the site. We've had other GBL userboxes before and they have been welcomed. These are no different. --GAHOO t/ c 01:40, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: I'm neutral on this, except I support deletion of the Gay Players category, as we don't have categories of other Player groups. --Leuqarte 23:10, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't really care either way about the Gay Players category, whether it is deleted or not. I only created it because I saw that there were categories for player countries so I mistakenly thought there would be no harm done to create one for gay players. I do however hope that Template:Gay and Template:Bisexual are not deleted. --Jaison 04:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

What else did we have besides the two userboxes and the category? --Leuqarte 04:39, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think those three are the only gay-related things being considered for deletion right now, or at least so I think. Is that what you're asking? --Jaison 00:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Honestly I can't remember anymore - My statement above is too ambiguous. I don't recall that being the information I was looking for though. --Leuqarte 18:17, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Jaison's and Gahoo's points - I see no reason for this to be deleted. Using it as a means to identify oneself is harmless, and hardly offensive. I can see how they would be helpful for players to identify other like-minded players, in the same way that posting one's location would be helpful if you're looking for other players who live near you. While I understand that there are people who disagree with sexual preferences other than heterosexuality (based on personal opinion or religion), I don't see how having something stating a player's bisexuality or homosexuality can be viewed as offensive, when (like it or not) it merely states the truth.

I understand that the argument can be made that the wiki has no need for such things because they may not relate directly to FFXI, but if that argument is to be made, then many other types of things fall under the same argument, and thus should also be deleted.

As far as the game's Teen rating - I think that simply identifying oneself as gay or bisexual is fine within the realm of Teen-rated games, just as identifying oneself as heterosexual is fine. Going into graphic detail about sexual preferences is clearly unacceptable, heterosexually or otherwise - these hardly do that. See Aikar's comparison to hypothetical 'sexual fetishes userboxes' argument; it's apples and oranges - they're not the same.

My vote is against deletion. --Malfait 04:40, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I oppose deletion. I do not think this userbox is offensive; it merely states that a player *is* gay/bisexual. It does not go into any inappropriate details about that player's sexual activities. Sexual orientation does not equal sex. (In fact, one can be gay/bisexual and be a virgin, or be totally celibate.) Also, the actual icon is a rainbow, which is not a sexual or otherwise offensive image. There are also existing userboxes for Girlfriend, Girlfriend2 (2 females), Boyfriend, Boyfriend2, Husband, Wife, and Love. Yes, there is one for "This user loves that user." >.>

While I agree that one's sexual orientation is unrelated to the game, one of the purposes of userboxes is for people to share themselves and be social within the community. Isn't that why there are also userboxes for nationalities and gender, even though one's nationality and gender is also unrelated to the game? Fiorenzo 19:39, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Proposed Resolution: Ok, seeing how this has gone well past the two weeks and has gone without comment since June 25th, I think it should be safe to come to a resolution. I think it would be safe to keep the two templates given the arguments here on the grounds that the images are replaced with something more tasteful than a rainbow flag. The category, as mentioned, can be safely deleted. This will still allow individuals to identify themselves on their userpages as they see fit, but a category to organize such individuals shouldn't be necessary. I'm going to make it clear that any userboxes or categories outside this venue are strictly prohibited and grounds for speedy deletion (e.g. GLBTQ categories/userboxes or the like which imply overly explicit or negative connotations such as transgenders or queers). Such expression can be considered offensive and inappropriate and deemed out of scope to the nature of this discussion and it's outcome in addition to being contrary to the family game and website this wiki was built off of. If nobody has any further objection or commentary contrary to the proposed outcome, I will delete Category:Gay Players and remove the delete tags from Template:Gay and Template:Bisexual. --User:Charitwo/Sig 04:05, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that these are fine on userpages. User pages are not part of the main wiki, and we have rules specifically stating that main articles cannot link to them. While these userboxes are sexual in nature (in the same way that the gender ones are), they are not explicitly so, and therefor fall within our guidelines. I do not agree that the rainbow flag should be replaced. There's nothing distasteful about a colored flag. Currently (to my knowledge) the only categories we have to group users together are those categories for server location and country of origin. I think we should leave it at that. --◄Chrisjander► t/ c 04:39, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree with the keeping of the gay and bisexual templates and the deletion of the category, although I do not agree that the rainbow flag should be replaced. Like Chrisjander, I do not believe the rainbow flag is distasteful. I also must add that the terms transgendered and queer aren't necessarily negative... A lot of individuals use those labels to identify themselves. --Jaison 03:28, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Resolution: Delete category. Keep templates. --User:Charitwo/Sig 12:41, 11 July 2008 (UTC)